Laura McInerney 101: What Teachers Want, and Need, Right Now and How Tutoring Can Help: Podcast Transcript

Ludo Millar
Hello, and welcome to the Qualified Tutor Podcast, the podcast that brings you the latest in the world of tutoring EdTech and education and hopefully inspires in us a big change that each and every one of us is capable of.

Qualified Tutor is an industry-leading tutor training organisation and an online tutoring community for 1000s of tutors around the world. This podcast is the voice of this community, where we aim to hear from tutors, teachers, entrepreneurs, coaches, business experts, students, tutor printers, and more from the world of tutoring about what inspires them every day, how they can help tutors like you and what they’ve learned about tutoring along the way.

The question is, what will you learn today?

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Ludo Millar 1:41
Hello, and welcome to the 101st episode of the Qualified Tutor Podcast. This episode has its own special place in the in the Qualified Tutor Podcast-verse after all of the hubbub and hype about the 100th episode last week, hopefully welcoming a whole bunch of new listeners to the podcast, and incredibly delighted to be welcoming Laura McInerney to the podcast for this episode. Laura is really one of the major players in the teaching and education market in the UK and beyond, and has written a number of books on leadership and education and really encouraging teachers to be the best that they can and to empower teachers to to be able to integrate best practices in what they do. And hopefully today, if possible, we’re going to try and turn Laura’s attention to the world of tutoring and to see how the interplay between tutoring and teaching can play out this year and and beyond. So I’m not going to speak for much longer because Laura is a true expert and we want to squeeze every bit of value that we can out of this conversation. So welcome Laura to the Qualified Tutor Podcast. Thank you for being here today.

Laura McInerney 3:57
Thank you for having me on episode 101. I’m a bit worried it’s like Room 101, I hope you’re not gonna pull a lever and I drop through a trap.

Ludo Millar 4:06
Maybe, you know, recording remotely, that danger has been removed from the equation. You never know. Yeah, there’s potentially something in there kind of, ‘Laura McInerney 101’ today. Lots of podcasts kind of delve into a huge background to their guests, you know, and quite rightly. But today, I don’t want to hear you know, a 10-minute history of Laura McInerney. I want to hear about the future, and the present and the future. So if we can, yeah, keep that in mind, Laura, when we’re running through this. [LAUGHS]

So we’re going to start with, contrary to what I just said, we’re going to start with a question that we often ask our guests which will incorporate a little bit of your background but that question Laura is, what is your why?

Laura McInerney 4:55
I mean the thing that gets me up every morning and has done throughout my career is a love of information. And I think the more information that you can share with people in ways that are accessible, and that they can take on board and take away and use it, the better informed better society, better worlds that we ended up with. And that goes, when I was a teacher, I obviously wanted to get really good at explanations and get really, really good at taking lots of lots of information, make it digestible, make the experience understandable for young people so they could go and take that knowledge with them, which of course, is what great tutors do, right? Like that’s, I think that’s what drives a lot of people in tutoring as well, the idea that you can in one hour with nothing but your kind of voice, body and understanding of topics communicate that to somebody else who uses it for a lifetime is unbelievable. It was the same in journalism, except then you’re looking at a range of facts sources, speaking to people getting that information and distilling it into 800 words or 600 words or a tweet, whatever will help it be communicated best. And now I run this day survey of teachers, Teacher Tapp, we survey about 7500 teachers every single day and any teachers who are in schools, those of you who tutoring and in schools as well, please do download it. It’s free to download and answer the questions because it gives us a way of finding out what’s happening on the ground. But most importantly, on each tap, we share that information back. We want to be able to give you know, once a day at 3:30pm, a simple way of giving information that helps people whether that helps you make decisions about what you want to do in your job, teaches you something about learning, stops the government doing completely bonkers things because they can’t lie about what’s happening in schools. That’s my why, how do I find out what people want to know? How do we get that information? How do I get it to them?

Ludo Millar 6:44
So yeah, Teacher Tapp is obviously a pretty exciting adventure, and is certainly affecting the lives in a positive way of 1000s of teachers. What’s done with that data as it’s collected?

Laura McInerney 6:59
So each day on the app, there are usually three questions and then you get to yesterday’s results. So the first thing that happens is the teachers themselves get to see the data. And that’s just brilliant. I had a teacher run up to me at a conference once. And she’d seen how many teachers and other schools got free tea and coffee. And she had taken the app to her headteacher who’d resolutely said that this was not allowed. The taxman would not allow you free tea and coffee, and she showed them to the head. And now she’s very pleased that they had free tea and coffee. So that’s one thing, but you know what it sounds like a small thing. But actually small things like that really matter when you’re having a challenging day, free tea and coffee, I’ll tell you I’ve worked places for lesser benefits [LAUGHS]. And then I think that a lot of it is about policy-makers being able to get that feedback. Politicians do mention it regularly as things that they’re feeding into, and lots of education businesses as well. They’re always desperate towards teachers, they want to make products, they want to make software and do things and charitable events that schools want to buy into, or will help schools. But you can’t have teachers who are absolutely exhausted a lot of the time. And don’t see two computers on phones in focus groups every five minutes. And so what we do is we give that kind of little bit of aa tap in, it means that the teachers can learn, policymakers learn and the education businesses can learn. And we do it in like an average of 50 seconds per day from each person rather than lots and lots of chasing around and thinking of filling out that long survey again.

Ludo Millar 8:26
Yeah, which obviously was one of the core tenets of this, I assume was managing teachers’ time and making sure it didn’t get added to a to-do list. So I guess off the back of that really is what may seem like a fairly obvious question, but what are you learning? What do teachers want right now?

Laura McInerney 8:48
So I think specifically at this moment in time, we’re just coming out of a Covid crisis, hopefully, you know, things seem to be getting back to normal. We’ve probably thought that several times over the last few years. And there’s a there’s a feeling that teachers want something specific, but what we’re seeing is something that teachers have always said that they want, teachers want time. And the reason that they want time is not just because they want more hours in the day for nothing. They don’t want the time to mark, I can tell you that they hate marking work. I mean, almost no teacher likes marking, apparently, what th ey do like is delivering quality lessons. But to do that, you are essentially performing during those hours when you’re onstage in front of a class of 30 students. And that’s absolutely exhausting. Plus, you’ve got to plan that lesson. And then afterwards, you’ve got to rethink what you’ve just been through. You’ve got to figure out from the work what the students doing, and you’ve got to replan. So ultimately, they want more time, because they want to be able to put in quality before and after time of planning and have a bit of recovery, rather than in the majority of certainly England state schools and I would say broadly across the UK as well. You know, as teachers are running, it’s 20 to 25 hours per week of delivering in a classroom. That’s not something that we ask of lots of performers who are on stage. We don’t ask them to do that. And they’ve got a whole crew of stage managers and everybody else, you know, they don’t also have to worry about the audience. They just have to perform.

Ludo Millar 10:16
So we’re looking at ActorTapp, SingerTapp … ? 

Laura McInerney 10:21
I mean [LAUGHS], I wonder if they would say the same about time, and I don’t think teachers look, no, everybody would like to be able to achieve more and have more time for leisure activities, and so on. But I think when we often ask questions about what would you spend time on? Where would you like to be able to put more of your efforts they want to deliver Well, in the classroom, they want to do better on planning. And to do that you can’t do it, if you’ve got 25 hours in a classroom, and then everything else piled up on top as well.

Ludo Millar 10:47
Okay, so what do teachers need them to achieve?

Laura McInerney 10:55
I mean, to achieve that, within the school system, you’d have to have an Education Secretary who was willing to hire an awful lot more teachers and spend an awful lot more money. I think what we are seeing is, are there places where we can cut out some of the difficulties. For example, during the pandemic, one of the big shifts was around homework. Homework historically has been handed out, from when I was teaching, I handed out on bits of paper, then you had to try and grab all of those pieces of paper back in you had to carry them around with you and mark them off and then write in a register what the grades were impossibly overtime, put them into an Excel spreadsheet, actually, if there are online systems, in which homework can be delivered more efficiently, more remotely, they can be automatic, that information can be shared more broadly. And again, I’d be really interested in a tutoring perspective, how much easier it is for people who are tutoring alongside children who are in schools to now find out information about what they’re doing, because they can log onto a homework system and see actually, what do you do in your maths homework for your school? Can you log in, can you show me what you’re doing? That’s not something that was as possible before. And I think that’s cutting down on some time. Audio notes, instead of marking, that seems to be a big one, that it’s saving teachers’ time. But ultimately, I think, if we can’t give them time, at the moment, it would be good to think about whether there is at least some extra space for training for teachers, I think, especially those who’ve come into the profession in the last three years, they have had a really rough time of it. They haven’t been able to be observed as often, they haven’t been able to have people come in and help with their craft in the same way. And if I was in government, I might be looking to see if you could add five extra training days this year, maybe next year. I know young people have missed loads of school. So we don’t necessarily want to knock them out for five days. But actually, are there other things they could do in those five days? Could we encourage, for example, across the country, lots of the theatres, that arts venues, the community projects that haven’t had the income, that haven’t had young people, go to the museums, they’ve been missing out terribly. Actually, are there ways that they could put together whole packages for schools where they say, right, you run a training day with your teachers, and we will take care of this. And we’ll run, you know, five Big British Days Out for young people across the country, while their teachers get a bit of time to reset replan, and get back on board. I think that’d be a win, I called it Big British Days Out, because I think the UK government, you know, would like that. And that way, we could get a bit of time, bit of that social stuff back for the kids and reset for future years.

Ludo Millar 13:30
So how does Teacher Tapp work in that sense? Clearly you have a good oversight, you and your team and your Co-Founder, Professor Becky Allen, and the rest of your team clearly have a good understanding of the current play of the teaching industry in the UK. When a project like this, when an idea like this comes to the table, is that played out in the app? Do you ask questions that kind of insinuate the idea to then gather suitable evidence?

Laura McInerney 14:01
So, how do we get the questions into the app and which questions? Yeah, no, totally fair question. Absolutely. So no, it’s really important that we’re independent. We work really, really hard to make sure that the questions are as independent as possible, and that we’re not suggesting things. I’ve been wrong loads of times as well, by the way, so you said you’ve got a really good handle on it. You know, I’ve asked questions 100%, assuming that the answer would be something I remember once tweeting about the then Academies Minister had made a comment about how many schools wasted money on colour photocopying, and I tweeted something like, ‘Who even has unlimited school colour photocopying, lol??’ and I got 59 likes and it was great. And the next day, of course, the answer comes in loads of schools because I’d completely forgotten about primary schools. I was a secondary school teacher. I spent most of my time talking to secondary schools. I just forgot there were 16,000 primary schools out there, and many of whom, in fact, the majority of whom do have unlimited school colour photocopying. So it’s really important that we ask in that way, because we’ve got to prove ourselves wrong. And a lot of our questions come from the teachers themselves. So people will get onto social media and going to ask Teacher Tapp, send those things that they’d like us to ask increasingly people say ‘That’s one for TeachTapp’. That’s the phrase that they use. And we’ll pick those up, stick them in a Slack channel. And over the weeks, we kind of we go away and look at them. If policy announcements come out.

Recently, there was political impartiality, guidance for schools, which looked at whether or how you represent controversial issues in the classroom. And so we asked two questions. One was, have you read it? Yes, I’ve read the report. Yes but I’ve only read the newspaper articles. No, I’ve not read it. And then lots of people were saying it was going to have a ‘chilling’ effect in the classroom. So we asked next time, is this going to affect whether or not you discuss controversial issues? Yes, I’m more likely. I’m less likely. It won’t make any difference. Of course, what we find is, the majority of people have only seen the news reports, and it’s not going to make that much difference. Most people said, it won’t make any change. That was a really good thing to be able to point back and say, Well, look, it’s true. People are not reading this guidance. And so the government are making a bit of a furore on purpose, but actually on the ground, it isn’t gonna make that much difference anyway. So we could probably all just park this debate and worry about it another time. I think those are two very good independent questions. And one of the reasons we did that was we didn’t even get into that. Do you agree? Do you not agree? We try and focus on what is actually happening. That’s where we can make the biggest dif ference.

Ludo Millar 16:32
That’s really interesting insight and highly topical.

Laura McInerney 16:36
Yeah, I mean, I was a citizenship teacher. So for me, this is bread and butter and fascinating stuff. I’d have asked 53 questions on it. You know, I also have to remember that the users have got to be interested in the questions as well. And that’s why we keep it two to three, usually per day.

Ludo Millar 16:50
Yeah. Now, I’m going to turn the conversation slowly, as is probably, you know, my obligation as the host of the Qualified TUTOR Podcast. But are there questions about tutoring in there?

Laura McInerney 17:05
Yeah, we have asked in the past, actually, about how many teachers tutor. You’ve caught me off guard, I can’t remember the numbers off the top of my head. If I remember, correctly, maths teachers, obviously tutor much more than teachers in other subjects.

Ludo Millar 17:21
You say, ‘obviously’ …

Laura McInerney 17:23
I’m pretty certain I could probably Google it. That’s cheating, isn’t it. But I think that that’s true, I remember being really surprised at how many teachers did actually do tutoring. And they also obviously, make some money from it as well. So there’s different ways that teachers will earn cash match, just looking at that now how teachers are making money. And if I remember correctly, in the past year, we found once we reweighed, six, we make our data representative, we found that 15% of teachers had been paid for providing some kind of personal tutoring, outside of school, and about the same number, as money from exam marking, or from in fact, any job outside of education. And it was much more popular than selling resources. But again, I’m pretty certain I haven’t got this data here. But I’m pretty certain it was maths teachers, who were the most likely in secondary. And then within primary, there are also those teachers who I think are tutoring around SATs as well. 

Ludo Millar 18:24
Oh, that’s interesting, you know, having been involved in tutoring for close to a decade. But now, I didn’t realise that, you know, maths teachers, that was a more popular option than for English or science. But that’s really interesting, hopefully, very heartwarming for those maths teachers that are listening.

So I guess what I’d like to know off the back of that, stepping back a little bit, you know, I was kind of focusing in on the numbers and the stats. What role, and be totally honest here please, what role does tutoring have to play in the education system in the UK and in 2022 and beyond?

Laura McInerney 19:08
I feel about tutoring the way that I’ve always felt about private education, which is I think it’s very difficult to either stop it or get too upset about it, because people are entitled to buy things for their children, right? So if I’m allowed to buy my children textbooks, I’m allowed to take them to museums and I’m allowed to talk to them and I might know more about a particular subject than the person next door. The idea then that I would or wouldn’t you know, wouldn’t be allowed to buy a tutor to also do that is to me always quite strange. And I’m not a fan of this idea necessarily of banning private schools because I just think it’s a bit of an illiberal thing to put in place. Where I do think there are some issues is I am a little, was a little worried, if it’s something that because you’ve got money, then you’re able to access it, but actually, if you have a need for tutoring and don’t have the money, that it isn’t accessible, and we can see, obviously things like the National Tutoring Programme over the last couple of years. I was a big fan, I’m still sort of an ideological big fan, of the idea of the National Tutoring Programme. I think there is something about having people available to provide tutoring when needed as a supplement to the school system is a good idea. And the reason I think this is, I reckon 80% of children are fine within the mainstream school system. I’m not saying it’s absolutely perfect for them. But like 80% of the time, 80% of the kids get a really good education out of mainstream state school. And then there are some children that fit around the edges of this. And our solution has often been as a society to build separate schools. So in the case of those who have special educational needs, learning disabilities, especially where they’re getting much lower achievements comparable to peers at the same age, we will tend to build a special school. And we can debate whether we think that’s a good thing or a bad thing. But that’s the solution. And at the other end, where you’ve got children who, again, may have special educational needs. And so but they achieved much higher than their peers. And what we see is that we will have in certain parts of the country grammar schools, that’s the solution that’s put forward, right? Let’s build a school for the smartest children and put them in. And we do the same. Now we’re going to with elite 6th forms.

My view is, why wouldn’t we in the first instance, try and think about tutoring or in fact, a private sector solution, because it’s quite weird for the state to build entire schools to deal with what is in the end like a tail problem. And a tail problem probably requires quite an individualised solution. And I’ve never been convinced that siphoning off 10% of the smartest kids into a really big area, sending buses out to get them, isn’t that helpful, especially if you’re the first kid that doesn’t get into the grammar school. And so you’re just a new end of the tail in your own state school. So I’ve often been a fan of this idea that the Sutton Trust has had of having tutoring vouchers available. I remember many years ago, having this conversation with one Dominic Cummings, when he worked for the Department for Education, he was very interested in further maths. How do you make sure that every child has access to further maths if you’re actually like I was in an FE college, where you don’t have access to all of those, all of those courses? Because actually, you don’t have as many people in your cohort who are doing academic qualifications, what can you do, and he wanted to create these kinds of specialist schools. And my view was just getting a tutor. That, I mean, that just seems like the simplest solution here. And so I think it’s got a role to play. I don’t think we’ve worked out how to do it. And if it’s just about people buying it, then I do worry about the social justice implications.

Ludo Millar 22:53
Yeah. So is there- I don’t know which way around asked this question. Actually, the first way around that I thought of it was, ‘Is there anything that the teaching industry has been able to take from the tutoring industry?’. You know, given that there’s typically been quite a lot of let’s say, for example, tech funding, VC funding in the tutoring industry that the state school system isn’t privy to. But maybe, I mean, you know, what can tutoring take from the teaching industry? I think I’m thinking I’m going to ask it that way right now, actually, is what can the tutoring market learn from the teaching market in order to be a success, in order to help education as a whole as much as possible?

Laura McInerney 23:42
I don’t know if they can work in that way. What’s difficult a little bit. And we did ask various opinions about tutoring in different ways over time, especially around things to do the NTP and it’s often quite confused. So I don’t think teachers always have a- they haven’t thought a lot about tutors, right? It’s not their main thing to think about. And actually, they are not going to change their practice, just because some children tutoring and some children aren’t being treated, they’ve got to kind of work on the basis that, that they’re dealing with their classes as they are. So I think there’s sometimes what ends up happening, though, is that schools can feel a little bit like if lots of their children have to go and get tu toring, does that mean that they are failing, that they’re not doing well enough? And they would argue that they’re not doing well enough? Because they don’t have the types of things I talked about before the resources, the time, the ability to go away reflect the planning. And so often, if you’re in a school, you would think to yourself, well, instead of putting money into tutoring, why don’t you just solve the problem at source and I think that’s why you then end up with this quite complicated relationship. In some cases, between teachers, you can end up feeling like tutors are only there because they weren’t supported to do their job well enough in the first place. And then I think on the other side, you have tutors who can think one of two things. One is, well, if you guys are doing a better job, I wouldn’t be needed in the first place. And so they can also end up being quite anti school. Or they think, oh, we need to really work together. And I want to link him with the school and I want to get information but the school is not incentivised to do that often has a reaction, which is well, if I you know, I don’t really want to help you, because it makes me look bad. And that’s why I think it’s quite hard for the two to work together. And I’m not sure what each could learn from each other other than to maybe own and accept the differences, right? Teaching 30 children for six hours a day is not the same as teaching one to five children for say, two or three hours of very specific times, which is much more individualised, they are different. They are different surfaces, they can coexist. But I don’t know if there’s any great benefit in the overlapping a lot. It’s one of the reasons why with the National Tutoring Programme, I’m kind of fascinated about how much there’s an effort to blend in, right? We want the kids to do the tutoring, but it must be absolutely in line with what they’re learning in the classroom, versus just saying, ‘Well, hey, I think you doing three hours of anything in maths or English’ is probably going to be beneficial. And it doesn’t really matter if it’s different than what we’re doing in maths and I don’t have enough of a view because I don’t teach English or maths, which tend to be the ones that are tutored to see how exactly that would work. But it strikes me that a lot of time and effort is put into trying to match them when they are in fact very, very distinct.

Ludo Millar 26:46
Yeah, I think you’ve just touched on at least your insights into what the future of mainstream education can look like. And perhaps that keeping the two separate and keeping schools as somewhere where, you know, there is this base level of kind of fundamental teaching, and specifically English and maths and teachers are able to follow a curriculum, obviously, with their own flair and their own style of teaching, and then tutoring which almost shouldn’t follow the curriculum so prescriptively because, you know, kids are able to do that at school, and perhaps, you know, tutoring should be somewhere where kids are able to do something in an academic environment, but just, you know, slightly different kind of free, able to choose their own session topic or that kind of thing. I think that’s definitely something that effective pedagogy in tutoring looks at is, you know, allowing the child to find their own way in their learning. Whereas in a school, if that were to happen, that would be 30 different teaching session lessons.

Laura McInerney 27:54
This example, you know, when I was 15, I wanted to learn to play the drums right? In fact, on this podcast, we are doing it via a video called Unemployment hear that on the audio, but you’ll see my drum kit in the background, right? And it makes sense that I had to go out and figure out a way to learn the drums. That wasn’t something that was available at my school. And like nobody finds that weird, right? Nobody finds it weird that I then got a job as 16 in McDonald’s to pay for my drum lessons via a private tutor who taught me to play that’s just like a normal thing that you do in music. Yeah. Sometimes if it was, what if I wanted to learn, say poetry? Is that something that I should do? Now we’re seeing this whole burgeoning sort of online communities, things like Udemy and online courses as well, not just the personalised tutoring, but tutoring done through packaged courses of learning. And that in itself, I think is a really interesting way that things will go and as people do that themselves, they will also think, right, well, if I’m learning this thing online, I’m learning the drums, why doesn’t my 10 year old also learn how to do creative writing or make volcanoes or something else that is typically curriculum or academic, but done in a slightly different way? And I don’t think it would be sensible to panic about that. Oh my goodness, more children are learning more stuff, what? [LAUGHS] We don’t worry about brownies and guides and scouts for years and years. So I wouldn’t worry about this either.

Ludo Millar 29:19
This takes me, you know, we’re just kind of coming towards the end of our allotted 25 minutes, that I’ve imposed here, but that is perhaps fitting into this question. I’d like to ask two final quick fire questions if that’s okay. The first one is, if you could wave a magic wand over the education landscape, what would we see?

Laura McInerney 29:47
And I always say that I would just create a National Fund for window blinds because a huge percentage of teachers have their classrooms disrupted during the day by sun streaming in, and it feels an incredibly fixable problem, which would affect people’s eyesight. So comfort in the classroom. So that’s it. I know it’s not revolutionary, but it is my policy.

Ludo Millar 30:13
That was not what I was expecting you to say. I’m slightly worried now about asking the second question then, which is, what’s next for Laura McInerney?

Laura McInerney 30:25
I mean, I’m at Teacher Tapp, we have a team of 12. We’re developing now a school survey system as well, so that people are able to survey what’s going on in their school and look at how that is represented nationally. So your free tea and coffee, you know, is that the same in your school than it is in schools? But more things like, and the level of planning that goes on in your school, also, how’s that feel about their jobs, that kind of thing. And we’re really excited because ultimately Teacher Tapp’s been around four and a half years, I think it’s doing really great things in that time. It’s got a really, really great community. But what we want is it to be a proper voice for teachers, that also helps school improvement. And as I said, at the beginning, I’m just so interested in getting information that people want into their hands in formats that make sure they can learn from it. So that’s what it’ll be for me in whatever guise going forwards.

Ludo Millar 31:17
Whatever that looks like, whether it’s Teacher Tapp or another additional venture. Laura, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks.

Laura McInerney 31:24
Thanks for having me.

Ludo Millar 31:26
Yeah. Well, you know, that was Laura McInerney, one on one that was so yeah, I am very glad that we were able to fit this in. I know it’s been, we’ve been wanting to get you on for a long time. So that’s a, I hope, hugely beneficial conversation. For those listening, do go back. As I say, drag the cursor back on whatever podcast app you’re listening on. And listen to parts of that conversation. Because there was a lot in there, I think about the future of teaching, and about what teachers and schools need, which is not always what we hear about on this podcast, kind of as, as a community and a business that serves independent tutors.

So I have been your host, Ludo Millar. I’m also the Chief Communications Officer of Qualified Tutor, which is a business that runs tutor training programs. We’ve got our next cohort starting in just a couple of weeks time on the 7th March. But if you want to find out more about Laura, then there are ple nty of places: lauramcinerney.com, Laura’s own personal site, teachertapp.co.uk is the website for Laura’s and Professor Becky Allen’s business, you can find some of Laura’s texts and books that she’s written on Amazon, Predictable Failures, and The Leadership Factor, just two of those books. And finally, Laura also has runs a podcast called, Are You Convinced? so you can pop that into Google as well. The Are you Convinced? podcast, so there’s a great deal to do next, your to-do list is not over if you’re coming to the end of this podcast. But thank you very much for listening. And thank you, Laura. One final time.

Laura McInerney 33:15
Thank you. 

Ludo Millar 33:17
Cheerio, then. See you next time.

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Ludo Millar

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