Hello, and welcome to the Qualified Tutor Podcast, the podcast that brings you the latest in the world of tutoring EdTech and education and hopefully inspires in us a big change that each and every one of us is capable of.
Qualified Tutor is an industry-leading tutor training organisation and an online tutoring community for 1000s of tutors around the world. This podcast is the voice of this community, where we aim to hear from tutors, teachers, entrepreneurs, coaches, business experts, students, tutor printers, and more from the world of tutoring about what inspires them every day, how they can help tutors like you and what they’ve learned about tutoring along the way.
The question is, what will you learn today?
Ludo Millar 1:13
Hello, and welcome to the 140th episode of the Qualified Tutor Podcast. My name is Ludo Millar, the host of this podcast. Welcome back to our regular listeners. Welcome to any of you for whom this is your first time listening to the Qualified Tutor Podcast, how lucky you are today. And a very, very warm welcome to our two guests today, Crystal Weber and Tim Gascoigne. Tim and Crystal, welcome to the podcast.
Crystal Weber 2:31
Hi, Ludo. Thanks.
Tim Gascoigne 2:33
Thanks so much.
Ludo Millar 2:34
It’s not often that I get the pleasure of two guests joining us. So I’m very happy that there’s a little party of us here. You guys have- there’s a huge amount of experience here in the online tutoring and of course, the ESL area: English as a Second Language.
I don’t know, our listeners today, if you guys have come across Crystal and Tim before but if you haven’t, I’ll just give you a little bit of background about these two guests so that you know where we’re coming from today and where the conversation is going to be directed at. So, Crystal – our most loyal fans will know – is actually a returning and very welcome double guest on this podcast, first appearing on our 88th episode back in … ? Crystal, do you remember when it was?
Crystal Weber 3:26
I think it was about … a year ago, wasn’t it?
Ludo Millar 3:28
Yes, exactly. November 2021. Hey well, I guess it probably lives long in the memory, Crystal. So Crystal is the Founder and Managing Director of Crystal Clear ESL, which is an organisation that provides a beautifully designed, carefully curated, step-by-step ESL curriculum to online ESL teachers around the world. A proud Canadian living in Southampton in the south of England with a German husband, so Crystal has global running through her completely.
Our other guest today, Tim Gascoigne, is I believe from the island of Bermuda, another proud Canadian and now residing in Bangkok in Thailand, has been an online ESL teacher for many online companies and even more years. Previously, he was a teacher and tech support specialist in Malaysia and, really, these days, Tim has carved out a niche as an online coach for online teachers, helping them teach ESL online and build online teaching businesses, online tutoring businesses. So really, really a lot of experience coming to the fore here. And of course, their big news coming up is that they are both running the Level Up Summit coming on Friday 2nd December. So we’re going to be touching a little bit on that today. But first we’re going to get to know Crystal and Tim a little bit better. So our first question – and Tim I’m going to point this at you first, as our new guest on this podcast – is about your why. Could you tell us a little bit more about your why as a tutor, Tim?
Tim Gascoigne 5:07
Sure. Thanks for the very nice introduction. I got my start in teaching – so I’m a former brick-and-mortar teacher – and I’ve thought about my why a lot with getting into teaching; specifically, when I got started in Canada, and, you know, I always felt like it was in my blood. I always enjoyed working with kids and when I was really young, I had lots of other teachers and family members saying that, you know, “One day you’re going to be a teacher”, and I always thought I had that resistance to it, because it was always thrown at me. And then it was just one thing flowed into the other and things fell in place. And when I was emerging as an adult, that was really what I wanted to do. And I loved the many years that I taught in different schools and, you know, helping young learners to grow.
I always taught the littlest ones, kindergarten, and 1st grade, and then had opportunities to go overseas, and got into the ESL world teaching in China. I really had no experience until I was teaching in- teaching students that were learning English, in these international schools, and, you know, got training and got more experienced with that as time went on. And then, entering the online world, I really wanted to find a different career, to be honest. And I wanted to get into online work. And when I found that you could actually still teach and work online, that was just the marriage of two things that I wanted to continue doing. So that was sort of the impetus to getting started with online tutoring or online ESL teaching. And that’s what I’ve been doing ever since I resigned from the classroom about five years ago. So that’s a little bit about me, in a nutshell, and sort of how I’ve arrived here.
Ludo Millar 7:10
Yeah. So these days, you’re living and breathing online education, yes?
Tim Gascoigne 7:14
Yes. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah.
Ludo Millar 7:17
And do you find that- how do you find that difference between online and in-person education? Do you find that you’ve slipped into it and you probably couldn’t imagine going back to in-person or other bits that you miss about it?
Tim Gascoigne 7:32
Sure. There are definitely bits that I miss about teaching in person. And it’s not so much actually about the students, but more – because I still get to have that student contact, it’s different, of course, but I’m used to it now – but it’s the colleagues and the community of being in a work environment where you have, you know, just a different level of community than you do with with online. Yes, I do miss a group of 28 five-year-olds, but I also really enjoy one at a time as well [LAUGHS]. But yeah, of course, I miss the human interaction, like in the classroom, for sure. But there are a lot of things that I don’t miss as well about teaching in the school system. And I get to not have to deal with all of those things in an online environment where I run my own business.
Ludo Millar 8:27
Yeah. So would you say that some of those things ring true for your experience as well, Crystal?
Crystal Weber 8:33
So many things, yeah. I’m actually a brick-and-mortar teacher as well, albeit at secondary level. So my experience is with 11 to 18-year-olds in UK secondary and college environments. And after doing that for numerous years, I just found it wasn’t for me. The teaching part is by far the best part, but at least in the UK education system, it’s so bogged down with non-teaching aspects that the contact time and that spark of enjoyment became such a small aspect of what I was doing. So I came away from that originally just to have a break to have kids and that break turned into, you know, quitting basically.
I didn’t go back and that was partially because of how I felt about brick-and-mortar teaching here. But it was partially because at the time, when I was ready to get back into the career world, the online teaching industry was up and coming and like Tim said, it fills so many of the gaps for a teacher. It’s fun and fast-paced, but it also doesn’t have some of the drawbacks like all the marking for example. I loved, as a stay-at-home mom with this online teaching hobby, that I could pick it up and put it down as needed around the demands of my family. And I was really lucky, in my contracted online teaching years, to work for companies where there was very little notice. I often worked short notice. So I kind of just decided on the morning if I wanted to have lessons that day, and was lucky enough to get booked really quite successfully.
So it did everything that I wanted it to do at the time. And I really love it, I do still teach a little bit now freelance, but obviously, my main time-suck is the curriculum business. So yeah, it’s like the best of everything at the moment. But in terms of a why, I think it’s almost exactly the same as Tim. It’s about freedom. And, you know, persevering with the experience and education and love that we have for teaching without all the strenuous stuff.
Ludo Millar 11:12
That is the rallying call for online educators, isn’t it? I love that: it’s about freedom. But without, you know, exactly as you say, all the strenuous stuff. We’re all nodding here, because we agree – it’s like a little echo chamber [LAUGHS]. But no, there’s really a lot to be gained. And of course, you know, lots of our hands were forced because of the pandemic, but now, that decision has been taken actively or proactively, at least. So, you know, just mentioning the pandemic there, I mean, we’re now towards the back end of 2022 and in large parts of the world, the pandemic has kind of come to a little bit of an end. Where is the online ESL market at at this stage, Crystal?
Crystal Weber 12:05
I dunno, people ask me that. And I feel like, while I’m overall an optimistic person, my view of it is a little pessimistic, because I think that the pandemic went hand-in-hand with significant changes to the China ESL market. And that really rocked our industry. And initially produced a massive surge of teachers turning freelance, and excitement and, you know, people concentrating on professional development and business building and so forth. But I think in the year plus, since then, since the fallout of the China market, it’s really subsiding, in terms of people are understanding that freelancing is hard work, that the pay rates for contracted teaching have been driven down, and that the skill set of a teacher does not automatically mesh with the skills required to run one’s own business. So I would say that the market is constricting at the moment. And I also speak from the curriculum side and that there seem to be less people turning to freelance than there were a year ago. What do you think, Tim?
Tim Gascoigne 13:32
Well, I’ll throw the optimism in [LAUGHS]. Okay, I think I mean, I agree with what you’re saying for sure. I think we are in the very targeted industry that we tend to speak to, which is the sort of ex-Chinese-platform teacher that’s continuing to teach. I think you’re right, in many ways. But I think that if you look at the broad industry of tutoring, I believe there’s always going to be people needing to learn English. I think that there’s a real shift in online teachers becoming more entrepreneurial and wanting to skill up and figure out how to do it.
But yes, like you said, Crystal, the skills of a teacher can lend themselves nicely to the teacher in our world, but there’s a big gap there, in terms of moving oneself from the safety net of a classroom or company into going independent, but I think, you know, it’s not all complete doom and gloom with the tutoring. I don’t refer to what we do in ESL teaching [as ‘tutoring’], so I get a little bit convoluted with the word ‘tutoring’ sometimes because that is another way of describing online teaching, but it can encompass tutoring in a specific subject area that you’re specialised in. Maybe it’s like a reading specialist and you’re tutoring and you’re targeting, you know, homeschool children in North America or you’re providing Math tuition to high school students in the UK. I think there’s always going to be the need for online teaching. And the pandemic has shown that we can do it, that it can happen, that people can still learn online. And it’s normalised it more. So I think, yeah, while there are definitely challenges, I think that there’s still space.
Crystal Weber 15:37
Yeah. And I think you’re right with that too, Tim, like, one of the great influences of the pandemic and normalising online learning while teaching and learning, is also that the technology is coming on so quickly, would you guys agree? The advancements in online classrooms and tutoring portals and all the infrastructure that we need for business are just coming on so fast. It’s remarkable and great.
Tim Gascoigne 16:05
Yeah, when I got my first tutoring student, or ESL student online, like 12 years ago, just by sort of fluke, from a student that I was teaching in China, there was nothing out there really, very little. I mean, I knew that I called my mom on Skype. So that was like a way that I could do video. I knew some free websites. I picked a number out of a hat what to charge, I had no word, nothing, to bet, to base it off of. And that poor student’s mother walked to the bank and transferred the money and sat at the Chinese bank all day, and to do a big transfer of like, we used to do 100 classes at a time because it was so laborious in China to send money overseas. Now, we’ve got better ways of getting money out. But yeah, it’s just funny how quickly it’s changed.
Ludo Millar 17:03
It’s a real sign of how things have changed. Yeah. For sure. So how do you help- you were talking, Tim, about supporting the community of ESL teachers to move from just being a teacher in a classroom to suddenly being a teacher online. But we know that that also means that you’re a bit more of a business, you are sort of a one-man, however many people in your organisation-band. What does your role, your current role, as an online tutoring teaching coach encompass?
Tim Gascoigne 17:40
Sure. So I have basically just taken my audience on YouTube through my journey of working for companies, and then doing the transition to independent teaching. And I already had some business skills, from trying different online things, and also having a handful of students over the years privately. So that’s what I have done through my YouTube channel is to take people along my journey and give them kind of everything that I know. And then I packaged it all up into a coaching course, I guess you could call it, where I help people from the beginning stages to launching with their students, talking about marketing, choosing curriculum, establishing your prices, having a brand online, you know, how to convert students – all those types of things that go into it when you want to go out on your own. So that’s kind of my role, I think, with them. But I’m sort of a resource. I see myself as a resource for online teachers to learn about companies, because I’ve sort of done all of that. And I’ve researched it all and I am a channel of just different information about lots of different things. Yeah.
Ludo Millar 19:02
When you recommend curriculum, do you recommend Crystal Clear ESL curriculum?
Tim Gascoigne 19:08
Well, I do use her curriculum. So yes, I do. I do [LAUGHS]. It’s funny how that all works. That is the truth.
Ludo Millar 19:18
You had to say that … [LAUGHS]
Tim Gascoigne 19:20
Yeah, I know but I do use her curriculum and speak highly of it. So I do recommend her curriculum, yes.
Ludo Millar 19:31
With thanks to our sponsors this week, Newman Tuition, and their founder, Zac Newman.
Zac Newman 19:37
Hi, this is Zac from Newman Tuition. Educating young people and helping them to fulfil their potential is one of life’s great joys. If you are a high calibre individual who shares our passion for teaching, then we would like to hear from you. We are committed to gathering together tutors who have strong academic records and enthusiasm for teaching and excellent interpersonal skills. This is why we seek only the best tutors to join our network and why we are recommended by the Good Schools Guide. To join our team or to find out more, please visit newmantuition.co.uk.
Ludo Millar 20:23
So I mean, you both, Crystal, in running Crystal Clear ESL and knowing so many ESL teachers, and, Tim, in being a coach for people who are plotting the same path as you did many years ago, you must see some of the challenges that online tutors face, online ESL teachers face. Could you just give us a quick overview, each of you, of some of those that you see, and crucially how to overcome them, how to move past them. Because that’s what I love this podcast to be about is providing those little tips that take people from A to B in small, manageable steps. So Crystal, if we can start with you, what are some of those obstacles and how to get past them?
Crystal Weber 21:11
Well, I think one has already sort of presented itself. And that was when Tim was saying about his transition from brick-and-mortar teaching, and that one of the things that he misses, or that would draw him back is that sense of community with other adults. And that’s big, because when we work behind the screen, there are very little opportunities for online teachers to connect with other adults. And in order to do so, you have to really make a decision, a conscious effort to seek out those connections. So it’s big for me, I’m kind of an extrovert [LAUGHS], I love to socialise. And that has been, you know, if I get a client messaging me with several questions, I do get chatty with them. And I do share about my day. And I have developed friendships with clients in this way. Doing things like what you do Ludo with the podcast and inviting speakers, and keeping up those relationships is really cool. But also any settings that are provided and there are, if you look, there are settings provided for online networking or meet-ups or socials or, you know, collaborations and jumping in.
I think another great way would be to admin or to become a moderator in an industry relevant group, because then you are thrust in with the other admins or moderators to collaborate and to plan for that group and to bounce ideas off each other, and just to build relationships. So there are lots of ways to do it. But I do think, for most of us, it’s important to keep that up and to keep that sense of self as an adult alive.
Ludo Millar 23:06
Yeah. And it’s true, isn’t it, that when we first meet someone online, we can sometimes be slightly different to how we would be if we met them in person. But I think, of course getting to know someone many times 2, 3, 5, 10 times, you are yourself by the end. I mean, it would be too much to try and keep up that online persona, over, you know, 5, 10 meetings with someone. So yeah, I do think now, after two and a half years, three years of that, those relationships are just as sure as they would be anywhere else. Tim, do you see it similar?
Tim Gascoigne 23:42
Yeah, and I would add to that, that, you know, if someone’s listening, and they feel alone in this space, just reach out to someone. I think online teachers and tutors are some of the friendliest folks to want to help. And we can get into some Facebook groups, let’s say, for example, that are maybe drama-filled at times, or whatever, you know, there are not so nice people in the audience out there online, but find someone that you can connect with and ask questions of that person or join, like Crystal said, networks or industry-specific groups and just reach out, you know, someone will respond, and then you can strike up a conversation.
One thing that I do through my programme is to help teachers to connect with each other because I think there’s so much power in connecting. You can share resources, you can even share students, I mean, it can be a great way for someone to start their business if they have no students, is just by connecting with others. So, you know, I set people up with an accountability partner in my programme, which often carries them even beyond the course to be, you know, great friends and-
Crystal Weber 24:53
Isn’t that how a couple of our speakers hit it off, Tim?
Tim Gascoigne 24:57
Yes, exactly. That’s a great example. Two of our speakers at the Summit, who were in my course, connected, became accountability partners, and then went into launching their own business helping teachers to market themselves on Chinese social media, which is amazing, you know, just that that can happen from just putting yourself out there into a community.
But in addition to that, I would also say that teachers struggle with, as we talked about, the business skills. So you know, look, everything is, I think it was Marie Forleo who said, “Everything is figureoutable”. You can go out and learn it – don’t feel like just because you can’t do something, it’s not something that you can overcome. None of us were born or came into this with all the knowledge and skills. If all of us can do it, so can you. So just get out there and learn it, whether it’s from a coach or from a YouTube video, or from someone that you know, in a group. And then, again, professional development. What we’re doing with our Summit is professional development. I think there’s just not a lot of, you know, maybe accessible professional development for us out there. So that’s kind of why we’re doing this Level Up Teaching Summit.
Ludo Millar 26:19
So, how are you tapping into professional development with the Summit?
Tim Gascoigne 26:26
Well, we’ve invited 10 speakers to hit on different topics that we feel like online tutors would really benefit from to grow in their business and to help them walk away with some new skills hopefully, and some ideas to try. It can be overwhelming to be at a 7-hour summit with lots of speakers. But if people can take away, you know, one or two things to implement the next day, then I think we’ve done our job.
Crystal Weber 26:57
Yeah, I agree. And it’s quite a full span of topics too. So there’s really something for every needs area, you know, whether that’s actual teaching pedagogy, or ideas or lesson planning, or on the business side, like how to recruit students using a new social media avenue you may have not tapped yet. So there’s really something for every skillset to fill every gap. And I think that’s super important. Because, like we touched on earlier, every online teacher is coming at this profession with a different background, different level of training, different world experience, and so forth. And just as Tim said, we’re not experts in every area from the outset. So I think it’s recognising that, being able to do a bit of self-reflection and see where you might need some development or where your skillset could use at some extension, and plugging those gaps with information. And something like the Level Up Summit is perfect, because it’s like a one-stop-shop really, to accomplish a lot of goals as an adult and a professional in this industry. So it makes it kind of easy for teachers.
Tim Gascoigne 28:18
Yeah. And I think we can stagnate in our business very easily once we get maybe the number of students that we want or things are ticking along nicely. But it’s so inspiring to see people just doing amazing things. So that’s what we want from the Summit is just people to be inspired to realise their potential and that they can do it.
Ludo Millar 28:41
That’s the nicest why if ever there was one. And I guess why now? Yes, you say, you know, Tim has been online teaching for over a decade and Crystal, you know, very, very similar as well. And we’ve all been doing this with an extra degree of intensity over the last three years particularly, why is this the right time to host a summit like this?
Tim Gascoigne 29:17
I think I saw the potential like with starting a New Year with some new goals and excitement. I think, at least for me, I always come to the end of the year and have a good reflection on the year and feel good about things. And then I sort of sometimes feel like I’m starting the next year just with a little bit of, I don’t know what the word is, drudgery. It feels like I don’t know why the New Year does that but it just sort of feels like I’m like starting from scratch again. But I think that the Summit will just give people some good motivation going into the holiday and stuff. And then starting the New Year with a bang. But I don’t know, I’ve always thought that I would like to put together a summit at some point, but it was, you know, just a project that Crystal and I kind of created together over the last several months. And it’s been really fun.
Crystal Weber 30:21
Well, part of it for me is kind of what you said, Tim, about a fresh start. But in a wider sense, I think we’re coming off of such a tumultuous time that a lot of people maybe are, you know, reflecting and thinking that it’s time, we finally have the capability to sort of pick up our businesses and dust them off and take the next steps with a fresh outlook, fresh goals and fresh knowledge to back us. So in terms of the timing, a lot of it has to do with post-pandemic, no more excuses. And a fresh outlook for me.
Ludo Millar 31:04
Yeah, well, I think if you’re able to show, if its attendees are able to see that programme come together as one, as you say, and those areas, different areas you talked about coming together, then that is hugely inspiring thing. I mean, being able to learn something new about how you run your business, like if you could tell an attendee afterwards who’s just picked up a new skill that they can implement in their business, “How much would you pay for that?”, you know, they would put a figure on that. And as far as I’m aware, it’s free to watch live this Summit?
Crystal Weber 31:42
Yeah, yeah, we’re really lucky to have some great sponsors like ClassIn and TutorBird that are enabling us to offer everything for free. So people can just log in live on the day, we’ll publish a schedule in advance there, they can, you know, plan their day around wanting to see specific speakers. And there’s no charge to do that.
Ludo Millar 32:08
Yeah. So where should people head after this? What is the CTA?
Tim Gascoigne 32:18
[LAUGHS] levelupteachingsummit.com. There it is.
Ludo Millar 32:21
End of podcast.
Ludo Millar 32:29
Go go. levelupteachingsummit.com, yep, and the ticket option that you want people to purchase is, or to access is, that free options.
Tim Gascoigne 32:45
Yeah, that’s right, they can get the free ticket and we’re offering an upsell, where they can get the recordings and some exclusive gifts from presenters. But if that doesn’t suit someone, they can just join for free and click a link on the date, it’s as easy as just clicking a link. And you’ll be able to watch for free. But if you’re not able to attend, we have that option to get the recording.
Crystal Weber 33:08
That’s right. And it’s so easy, because, you know, you can just log in with your phone, put your earbuds in and listen to a presenter as you get on with your day. There’s no, you know, commitment to participate if you don’t want to or show your face or, you know, use the chat. It’s literally like, take it as as you want it type thing.
Ludo Millar 33:32
Yeah. Also, it’s got the educator’s day in mind, which I really love. I’m sure every educator has a busy day, any online educator’s probably filling their day with things. So planning around that or organising an event that can be, you know, slotted into that day is awesome. Yeah, that is Friday 2nd December, you’ve got a little over just around 10 days, listeners, to get that into your diary, to make it work and to join Crystal and Tim, on that date. And to follow that programme. Of course, you can find the programme and all the speakers at levelupteachingsummit.com.
Ludo Millar 34:14
Now, a brief word from last week’s guest, Jason Preece, whose episode you can catch after this.
Jason Preece 34:24
It was a real pleasure to be invited onto the Qualified Tutor Podcast. It’s not really something that I’ve done before, and was something that I was maybe a bit nervous about going into. But Ludo was a great host and totally put me at ease. He was really easy to talk to and ready with some well thought-through, perceptive questions that prompted me to consider some of the key principles of our business that I maybe hadn’t had the chance to articulate before. It was also a really great way for me to reflect on our current practices at The Tutor Index, and to think about the direction that our business is taking. If you’re thinking about appearing on the podcast, you should definitely, definitely get on it. It was loads of fun, and definitely a great way for me to sort of expand my horizons. Thanks again for having me.
Ludo Millar 35:18
So guys, thank you so much. We’ve just got one more question to go, which is one that we end every episode with, where there’s a look ahead to the future. Now, obviously, if I’m to ask you what’s coming up for you guys, we all know what’s coming up for you guys. But what is on the horizon for you guys? Perhaps obviously, looking into the New Year. Tim, can I start with you?
Tim Gascoigne 35:41
Sure. Well, I’ve got a trip to Bali planned on December 7th. So I’m looking forward to that [LAUGHS]. No, but just continuing my work with my courses. And I’ve got some ideas for other ways to support teachers in the New Year and kind of refining some of my processes and creating maybe some slightly different types of content on my YouTube channel, which traditionally has always been about companies and independent teaching. So, you know, I love that I get to just explore that space of trying different things and seeing what works. And so that’s what the New Year will be about. And just continue, I really want to be able to bring online teachers together as well in things like the Summit. So yeah, that’s what’s next.
Crystal Weber 36:33
Yeah well, I’m so excited, because for the Crystal Clear ESL core curriculum, which was started almost two and a half years ago, we are probably within 12 weeks of wrapping up creation. So that’s almost 700 step-by-step lessons, it’ll be the first complete web-based curriculum in the industry. And I’m celebrating by spending Christmas in Kenya. So that’s yeah, the personal side. And I’m even more excited that what it means is, we can start improving what we’ve got, we can launch into other projects, we have so many cool ideas like integrating a Student Portal, separating out the core curriculum to be more specific to kids-only, an adult-only with a focus on adults that it starts right from beginner because there’s a real lack of a beginner ESL curriculum aimed for adults in our industry.
We’re going to start, hopefully, integrating contributions from other developers and being able to host them on the site to give other people the benefit of our infrastructure in reaching teachers who need their content. So that’s really fun. I’ve also just recently launched the Crystal Clear Academy. So I’m going to be hitting Tim up for more tips on student recruitment [LAUGHS], do some coaching sessions with him and trying to get that off the ground. I just feel like that’s a logical progression for the company with all of the other aspects of an academy already in place. Great next steps. So yeah, lots of exciting things coming up.
Ludo Millar 38:33
Well, thank you to this deadly duo, Crystal Weber and Tim Gascoigne, for coming onto the show. Thank you both for hosting and organising and spending the last few months really working very hard to make the Level Up Summit happen. I’m sure it’s going to be a huge, huge day and a big part of people’s calendars looking ahead to the final few weeks of this year.
So levelupteachingsummit.com is where to head next. But to both of you, well, what if listeners want to get in touch with you straight after this? What is the one best place they can go, Tim?
Tim Gascoigne 39:11
They can go to my, which one, YouTube channel @onlineteacherdude, and they can contact me through there.
Crystal Weber 39:20
Yeah. My website, esl-curriculum.com or you can just google search ‘crystal clear ESL’, we come up pretty high on the SEO, and there’s a chatbot on there, or you can email us on the contact form.
Ludo Millar 39:38
Awesome. Well, you have a wealth of options, listeners, to head to next to find out more about these two and about their Summit. So for one final time, thank you very, very much, both of you. We’ll speak to you very soon.
Crystal Weber 39:50
Thanks for having me.
Tim Gascoigne 39:55
See you soon. Bye.
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